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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:23 pm 

With the abortion referendum just around the corner I wonder what the general consensus is here. I was watching the debate on RTE and, naturally, it was very heated. This is a bit of an elephant in the room topic in the country and has been so for thirty years or more. I understand that it is a tough decision for many to make and while I have my own view, I find it such a personal affair that I can in some ways understand where the no campaigners are coming from. That said, I hope the yes side wins. I think that suggesting that women will adopt a lassaiz faire attitude and use abortions like the morning after pill is disingenuous and undermines how tough a decision it must be for a woman to face. But is it not up to the woman to make a mature decision along with her GP and then to retain some dignity in being allowed access to local and safe treatment with appropriate after care?

The no side made the point that in any jurisdiction that has allowed abortion it has led to an increase over time in the percentage of women accessing abortions. I don't know the facts and figures so I can't say one way or another, but if it's true then maybe that tells its own story? Perhaps there are a lot of unwanted kids being born because of the culture of shame around the issue. Just a brain fart there but maybe there is a bit of truth to it. That raises the issue perhaps of the standard of care some of these children face after being born?

It's a complex issue but my instinct is that we should trust women to be able to make the right decision for themselves.

I'm interested to hear your opinions on the matter too.

Edited due to my phone's gimpy predictive text...


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:39 pm 

Its a Yes from me...its an emotive subject and there are valid arguments on both sides..but I will vote Yes to give people the power to make their own decisions within reason...


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:06 am 

Yes from me.

I recently listened to a few episodes of a weekly podcast leading up the voting poll date. I was on a Yes side anywayas, as i believe its a woman's choice to do what she feels is necessary for her and nobody else, coupled with the fact the 8th doesn't stop abortion from happening anyway except under dangerous, illegal and shamefully unnecessary circumstances (having to travel). But one particular episode focussed solely on maternity, in every case of pregnancy including the much wanted, happy and healthy ones. Even then women face huge restrictions over having a say in how their own pregnancy is carried out, all the way up to and through labour.

It's an issue that will never (even closely) affect me psychologically, physically, medically or legally the way it affects a woman. I am entitled to have moral or emotionally conflicted/complex views on the act itself and how it is regulated in different circumstances, but each circumstance for each woman in itself is unique, and who am I to vote against that which has no impact on my life, but may be deeply life-changing or necessary for another?

The concern of it being used as form of contraception too doesn't fully resonate with me. As you mentioned, it's not something a woman will take lightly in deciding. Also, it could be said that there are many women who use trusted methods of contraception, which still fail and result in pregnancy. It could be argued that in those cases they did not 'consent' to being pregnant nor did they act carelessly. Carrying a child after a rape is also not consenting to being pregnant. Yeah there is the No-voters who claim we have regulations that allow abortion in specific circumstances, but they don't seem to be working? The risk of near-imminent death to the mother before any consideration or lawful decision can even be given to carrying out a termination, is setting the bar as low as possible really imo...and in the worst cases has led to death anyway, as the damage had already been too far gone.

There is decency and validity to both sides of the debate, but the way some of the No campaign has been handled and skewed in some aspects is fairly grim also.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:35 am 

Yes from me. Wouldn't force a woman to go elsewhere or take abortion pills illegally. Also young/in state care/poor women that don't have the chance to get the boat. Abortion isn't something done lightly - Hate the term on demand.

This won't get the same turnout the SSM referendum got in 2015 nor will yes win by over 60%. Based on previous votes (2002, 1983, even 2015 etc) there is at least 14 constituencies that will vote no. Probably 7-10 battleground constituencies and the rest of the 16 areas for yes. Granted times have changed but I still reckon this will be closer than people think.

It's up to a huge turnout in Dublin hitting the over 57%+ yes along with yes votes in Kildare/Meath/Louth/Wicklow/Wexford and various others to swing it. I reckon yes will edge it 50-54%. This will show up the rural/urban divide also.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:37 am 

Probably the most depressing part of it all is the current concern that tens of thousands of young people have not registered to vote, on an issue that may impact their very generation in years to come.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:10 am 

There should be no debate on the matter whatsoever.

We've become accustomed to the notion that unplanned pregnancies should just reach their term and earn get the moniker of a "little mistake".

The fact that modern science allows for countless procedures to correct the relentless and often pointless punishment we put our bodies through, the idea that abortion can't join such a list is purely down to sentimental embellishment of what abortion actually consists off.

By no means should the decision or procedure be taken lightly, but equally so to that of a gastric band or a liver transplant. The only reason abortion is so taboo is down to the generational preconditioning of the church in Ireland. Even though many of us can see past the basic aspects of Christianity etc, some still resent the idea of abortion without a valid opinion for such reasoning.

If you were born in a house that did the chapel on Sunday thing, there's 13 years of poison you had to endure and for some of us those ideals of the church stuck even after turning our back on the whole "religious stuff".

I see the worry of the "casual" abortion but for the odd scummer guilty of that, thousands of others will rightfully get the opportunity to do what's right for them, the child and ultimately society.

I for one detest those who take the opposite side of an arguement from myself but I also hate that preachy cunt who's on your side of the arguement, I've see myself go neutral on matters thinking "do I sound like that prick?"
So sorry if I sound like a ballbag. I have posted a comment or said a word on the matter until now, so excuse the rambling.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:05 am 

Yes. Absolutely archaic catholic dogma that denies a woman the choice to have a termination.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:53 am 

Yes, For basically all the reasons listed.

However, this thread (for now) seems to be the most reasoned example of a discussion. Facebook has become unbearable. A lot of the No side might be considered archaic with ill-thought out perspectives but the Yes side are utterly ridiculous and over the top. I've one friend on my feed, a sound fella who I have a lot of time for, who posted a link to some article criticising the point of view of some such, and at the end of his post asked anyone on his friends list to unfriend him if they were on the No side. The Yes side are just so militant that even though I agree with their point of view, I just can't help but dislike their superior attitude and condescension.

It reminds me when Richard Dawkins was doing the rounds on TV a few years ago and then out of the woodwork every second fuckin idiot was espousing the virtues of atheism. Maybe my problem is largely with Facebook, as that's the soapbox these days.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:27 am 

Yes for me too. The missus is a nurse and has so many stories of women suffering, and in some cases dying, because of the 8th. It's absolutely archaic


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:02 am 

It's a Yes here too, for reasons listed above. People are already getting these procedures done illegaly and dangerously, or overseas, so it's safer for them to have the law changed and allow them here. Women should have the right to choose what they want here, the different situations and reasons behind it are vast. Calling it "abortion on demand" is sensationalist, I trust people to actually consider their choices and seriously doubt most women would even consider getting this procedure just because they can, like the No side insinuate.

Also withered from the facebook arguing but still read the comments on the journal almost daily, I must fucking hate myself. To be fair, any friends on my feed that are voting and outspoken about it - either side - are not over the top so it's fine, and generally post interesting stuff. But the comment sections on any article about it are a disgrace, especially since the ads have been removed and it gets closer to voting day.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:18 am 

Yes vote from our house, as it seems to me,
quite ridiculous that a woman's right to healthcare is largely blocked by an amendment to the constitution.
We need medical professuonals to act quickly and not be held back by a fear of being brought before the courts for doing their jobs.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:46 am 

It’s yes from me. For all the reasons above. Both sides seem to be engaged in a shit slinging match but that’s all just background noise. I can’t vote no as I have no right to tell other people what they want to do.
To say women will suddenly start using abortion as a quick fix is ludicrous.
I’m glad somebody brought this up. Well done Mclovin


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 am 

Yes. I'm not on facebook but I can only imagine the type of garbage going on there. The No campaign has been disgustingly manipulative, from what I've seen of it. I'm sure the Yes campaign has had their moments, too. It's a shame that rational discussion seems to be rapidly dying off. Either way, my opinion on this has been the same since I became aware of the issue during the X case in the 90's. While I can't say I'm in favour of abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what happens in her body, simple as that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:09 am 

So from the straw poll above it’s going to be a yes vote. Although the demographic of the aul ones I saw giving out yesterday wouldn’t necessarily tally with ours! I simply don’t feel that the church can preach on the topic given their recent record, and that is basically that.

Be interested to see turn out numbers- like Brexxit if the younger folk don’t show up in greater numbers then the victory will go with the older generation if polls are to be believed.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:13 am 

A yes from me too.

Quote:
Yes side are utterly ridiculous and over the top. I've one friend on my feed, a sound fella who I have a lot of time for, who posted a link to some article criticising the point of view of some such, and at the end of his post asked anyone on his friends list to unfriend him if they were on the No side. The Yes side are just so militant


Not doubting your experiences for a moment mate but I haven't found that to be the case myself. I think the No campaign has stooped to the level of ridicule. Just look at the posters, designed to shock etc even the occasional bare faced lie thrown in for good measure and I've seen one with a cryptic reference to the lads from the 1916 rising?

It's an emotive topic, but what consistently disappoints me about the no side is that the majority of them think people are voting for "Murder" or "Abortion on Demand". I don't think anyone voting yes is pro-abortion or indeed would make a decision like that lightly.

Just to finish, my own encounters with the No group on platforms like Facebook etc have been incredibly frustrating but the following exchange I had took the biscuit. The conversation meandered in the usual way until I asked the individual what he would do in the instance of a pregnancy as a result of rape? He responded that whether he knew the person or not, his advice would be to carry the child to term, then put it up for adoption. I think it's terrifying that we have people that still think like that in modern Ireland.


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