Back
  Jordan Peterson
    
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


User avatar

Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
3405
Location:
In space, no-one can hear you smeg.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:40 pm 

moose wrote:
"He is clearly an extraordinarily intelligent man"

https://youtu.be/QO9j1SLxEd0?t=4m33s


:lol:


It's amazing how easily blindsided he is by this pretty obvious rebuttal.

But yeah, he's a fucking kipper:
https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1011248300496949249

And:
http://pressprogress.ca/jordan-peterson ... s-dubious/


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
4679
Location:
Madrid
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:48 pm 

C 16 explained https://youtu.be/bMbqCHPB9jg perhaps he was right after all...

Why, my I ask, is it 'masculine bullshit' that boys shouldn't cry? Or that girls should behave differently (prim and proper isn't how I'd phrase it). The implication being that 'difference', whether it be between genders or any other groups is somehow oppressive. The Boy Scouts, for example, are no longer the Boy Scouts. Simply the scouts now in the name of inclusivity. Males and Females have fundamental differences between them, and I'll assume you are intelligent enough not to require further elaboration, as your patronizing explanation of rudimentary genetics didn't.

Returning to the gender/sex argument, I consider the words to be absolutely interchangeable. Your explanation of how you view them differently makes no convincing argument to the contrary. Female and Male charactaristics principally define gender as opposed to sex? Outside of a strictly medical/genetic context, I fail to see the difference.

The reason I brought up the kindergarten example is because it's one of hundreds of examples I have become aware of. In the same state, for example, you can change your gender by simply saying it. It's insanity. Allowing children, like 5 year olds like my son, the freedom to decide what gender they are, and take puberty supressing drugs? Both of us are quite dug in as regards the side of the fence we are on, but surely you can't be an apologist for that? And where does it end? Can I self identify as a sub Saharan African, an Inuit, or a chair? It might sound absurd but if I can just decide my gender, why not anything else?


Top
 Profile   
 



Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
3685
Location:
dublin
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:49 pm 

What an incredibly unbiased channel you've found. They're not sensationalist in the slightest.

Men have incredibly difficultly expressing emotion. They often bottle everything up when it comes to their mental health. Where do you think that comes from? Little boys shouldn't cry. Men shouldn't cry. Men should be hard. Don't talk about your emotions, it's not manly. Drink this pint, do a days graft and shut up whinging. Men also have a pretty high suicide risk. I wonder if there's any connection between the two? Between a life of growing up being told to suppress your raw emotions because little boys shouldn't cry.

If raw emotion is telling your son to cry, why shouldn't he cry?

Yes males and females have fundamental differences. We also have fundamental similarities, but some of those similarities are tied to being masculine or feminine. II assume when you say outside of medical, you mean physical conditions/health and you're deciding to completely ignore mental conditions/health.

You'll have to link me to this California thing. All I can find outside of Breitbart, which I'm not going to click onto, is stuff about a law being passed in California about teaching very young children some LGBT+ stuff so that it's easier for them to understand the whole concept, something even many adults struggle with explaining.

As for letting children have freedom to decide what gender/sex they are - yes I do think there is an age that's too young depending on the aspect and I do think that letting people just flip back and forth willy-nilly is actually more harmful. If a little boy wants to wear a dress I do not give a fuck. Let him. If he wants to be called she, do it. If it comes to medical procedures, I think that's when it becomes an issue that should be held off on until they're of an adult age. I think throughout their formative years they should be given whatever support, mentally and emotionally they require and then when they're legally adults, they should be allowed do whatever at that point.

Also no unless you've a very direct lineage (something Americans struggle with) you can't identify as Sub-Saharan African because you're not from that region. That's about the only criteria for nationality. Now if you want to wear Sub-Saharan garb, I'm not going to stop you or yell at your for cultural appropriation.


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
4679
Location:
Madrid
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:25 pm 

Whatever about the narrator in the video, that is a lawyer interpreting the bill, and what he says appears to support JBP's claims.

I think we are getting bogged down in this crying thing. I cry myself on occasion, a choon is sometimes enough. If my son cries, generally speaking, I comfort him, provided he's not doing because he didn't get sweeties or whatever. I have never told him 'boys don't cry', nor did my father ever say anything similar to me. I would hazard a guess that most men cry, although rarely in public. Shame, pride and stoicism are naturally occurring raw emotions,and perhaps these kinds of reactions by men are more organic and not some kind of conservative conspiracy to keep everyone in their place as you suggest. Female hormones also dictate their reactions to at least some degree.

LGBT is perhaps THE cause célèbre of the 21st century. I can't think of anything more in the public eye, its in no way inconspicuous or taboo. Therefore I can see no reason whatsoever to expose children who are little more than toddlers to sexuality (of any kind) when they are not even in primary school. When I was 11 I was pretty sure an erection was for pissing over high walls, so how could a 4/5/6 year old possibly absorb the concept of sexuality, same sex preference or otherwise? Political Correctness doesn't even spare the innocence of young children it seems.

I know none of what I am saying is particularly fashionable, and you may have written off Jordan Peterson based on what you have heard him say on YouTube clips bashing the left. Nevertheless, I have a pristine, once read copy of his book and I will gladly make a gift of it to you or anyone else, and I'd bet quite a substantial amount that it's a game changer for anyone.


Top
 Profile   
 



Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
3685
Location:
dublin
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:34 pm 

Caomhaoin wrote:
Shame, pride and stoicism are naturally occurring raw emotions,and perhaps these kinds of reactions by men are more organic and not some kind of conservative conspiracy to keep everyone in their place as you suggest.


When/where did I ever say this?


Quote:
LGBT is perhaps THE cause célèbre of the 21st century. I can't think of anything more in the public eye, its in no way inconspicuous or taboo.


Yeah it's changing for the better. Remember a few years ago when gay people couldn't marry in Ireland? And we had to bring it to a vote and thankfully it passed, though not without much hatred and scorn from those opposed to it, who still oppose it.

Quote:
Therefore I can see no reason whatsoever to expose children who are little more than toddlers to sexuality (of any kind) when they are not even in primary school.


It's about normalizing why they might see two men holding hands or kissing, something that even though as you said LGBT is everywhere now, is still something that you rarely see. I still notice two men or women in public holding hands because it's frankly still an uncommon site. It's not about teaching them the in dept intricacies of it. It's about letting them know it's as normal as mammy and daddy holding hands.

Quote:
I know none of what I am saying is particularly fashionable, and you may have written off Jordan Peterson based on what you have heard him say on YouTube clips bashing the left. Nevertheless, I have a pristine, once read copy of his book and I will gladly make a gift of it to you or anyone else, and I'd bet quite a substantial amount that it's a game changer for anyone.


To be honest, I don't bother watching videos that bash either side. They're all equally as head in the sand as each other. As much as I agree with a lot of what someone like Jon Oliver says, I wish he could say it without putting in dumb jokes to get people hooting and hollering along.

I base my opinions on him on what I've come to believe about him of what I've heard him say, what I've seen him say and what I've read about him and what words of his I have read.


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Nov 2007
Posts:
2331
Location:
Tralee
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:06 pm 

Peterson knows what he is doing, when he says women shouldn't wear make up in the workplace because it sexualizes them, he knows full well that his supporters will go "fuck yeah, damn sluts" and the left will call him a misogynist. He speaks in hypotheticals and what ifs to give himself an out and to rile the right and left up simultaneously. His life advice isn't exactly what I would call inspired either.


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
4679
Location:
Madrid
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:29 pm 

Have you read the book, Dr.gonzo?

Gay marriage is such a minor issue in comparison to decriminalization of homosexual acts, for example. When I was in Ireland during the campaign, there was a real sense, even more than with the recent referendum, that if you had any opinion bar an emphatic YES, you felt intimidated into keeping quiet. It's very reminiscint of fascist tactics in the first half of the twentieth century. For the record, most of the arguments against gay marriage were weak and incoherent, and as far as I'm concerned, marry who you want. Marry a chicken, what do I care.

Take a look at the thread about the abortion referendum. Not a single person barring myself said they voted no, or even felt uneasy about voting yes (not that I am some kind of hero). The liberal left have taken the Catholic churchs place as the moral arbiter in Ireland.

By the way, I watch Sam Harris, Gavin McInnes and Steven Crowder a lot and whenever they post a video of Jon Oliver he comes across as a disingenuous, sneering twat....although they are all conservatives so there you go...


Top
 Profile   
 



Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
20513
Location:
Below the hengiform.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:38 pm 

I read the book too and while I didn't find it as revelatory as Kev I mostly enjoyed it. To his credit he kept things balanced enough in terms of pointing out the horrors of both the Nazis and Communists (Chris mentioned the Communist thing earlier) and I think he wants to distance himself somewhat from the alt right movement who he seems to get lumped in with a lot. A lot of his advice is obvious indeed once pointed out, but that is maybe easy to say from the perspective of somebody who's life is not a complete mess. The overarching theme in the book is essentially that if you want a better life then look around your immediate vicinity and see what small steps you can make to improve it, and gradually as your circumstances improve you will inevitably improve the lives of those closest to you. It's a positive and simple message basically. He weaves in psychology and philosophy and ancient wisdom/ bible stories (which he presents as universal archetypes) which I liked. Defo going to make an effort to dive into Jung and Neitzsche's work as it's fascinating gear.

The whole gender thing is a real hot potato and I don't really get it, to be honest. I get that there are men who feel like they are women and vice versa but the 70+ gender possibilities means nothing to me. Whatever you're into but I think there's a share of bolloxology around the whole thing. A chap I was working with was saying that his sister and her friends are obsessed with their genders and sexuality and treat it almost like a hobby, going so far as to take the piss out of their friend because he's straight (how boring), a claim he denies, insisting he's bi and had sucked a dick! In fairness, in work I have been working with loads of twenty somethings who are just out of college in the past couple of years and they seem mostly sound and narcissism-free so I'm not sure if this gender-fever is as big a deal as is being made out or of it's a passing fad.


Top
 Profile   
 



Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
20513
Location:
Below the hengiform.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:47 pm 

Also, fire up suggestions for further reading in this vein and also books that might take a different angle.


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Oct 2007
Posts:
512
Location:
Dublin
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:23 pm 

Eoin McLove wrote:
A lot of his advice is obvious indeed once pointed out, but that is maybe easy to say from the perspective of somebody who's life is not a complete mess.


:lol:

Well put.

I read the thing too but didn't find it that memorable. But since it's one of two popular sides in a prominent cultural debate I figured it was worth getting through.

The advice does seem rudimentary but then stating even relatively obvious facts can look like an act of sheer bravery lately. When social media is flipping tables on everything it can be cathartic to read something where the general message is basically, "hey, some stuff from the past is actually OK!". "Cleaning your room and working on your posture will do more for you than going to the rally!"

Shit, I should open a Patreon account!

I did enjoy that the simple act of reading the book seemed to annoy a certain kind of person. That feeling is dangerously addictive.

I see a lot of social media in my job and there's a classic pattern this thread has followed. Seriously, look out for it. You'll start seeing it everywhere.

1) Person expresses vocal like of Jordan Peterson
2) Person expresses even more vocal dislike
3) Person links the Cathy Newman video
4) Person links the Current Affairs article
5+) Way too many hours lost


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
2822
Location:
dublinium
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:59 pm 

There was an LGBT week in my home town in Spain this week. Nobody bats an eyelid, it all passed by really well. However, I couldn't help but notice the children's colouring stand, where children were given crayons to colour in figures similar to those you see on the door of a toilet but which represented non binary, cis gender etc figures. I really have to question this targetting of children. I find it disturbing to say the least and if the Catholic church utilised similar tactics there would be outrage.

The idea that we cannot question any group in our society is abhorrent to me and I notice a lot of people I know, who would be generally very liberal and open, feeling very pressured by the need to have to show support for such an organisation or movement that has very little to do with their everyday lives both inside and outside of the workplace. However, I agree with the poster above. Why are we even creating these conversations with children? Not everybody feels the need to have to discuss sexual preference and sex in general, most of us really don't care who anyone is sleeping with and I feel childhood is a sacred space which should be left alone no matter the agenda. I'm not sure anyone would even criticise the stand that was in the street the other day, however, for fear of a backlash, something which I feel represents the feelings of many in our wider society as a whole.

People like Peterson articulate what many people feel but cannot say on certain subjects. He is certainly no fool. I don't think he is trying to hurt anyone in the process and in many ways he is someone, the likes of whom we need to allow us to debate and converse on certain hot topics without resorting to the usual polarising shouting matches that have been all too familiar in the past number of years.


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Dec 2005
Posts:
1464
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:11 pm 

Eoin McLove wrote:
A lot of his advice is obvious indeed once pointed out, but that is maybe easy to say from the perspective of somebody who's life is not a complete mess. The overarching theme in the book is essentially that if you want a better life then look around your immediate vicinity and see what small steps you can make to improve it, and gradually as your circumstances improve you will inevitably improve the lives of those closest to you. It's a positive and simple message basically. He weaves in psychology and philosophy and ancient wisdom/ bible stories (which he presents as universal archetypes) which I liked. Defo going to make an effort to dive into Jung and Neitzsche's work as it's fascinating gear.

The whole gender thing is a real hot potato and I don't really get it, to be honest. I get that there are men who feel like they are women and vice versa but the 70+ gender possibilities means nothing to me. Whatever you're into but I think there's a share of bolloxology around the whole thing. A chap I was working with was saying that his sister and her friends are obsessed with their genders and sexuality and treat it almost like a hobby, going so far as to take the piss out of their friend because he's straight (how boring), a claim he denies, insisting he's bi and had sucked a dick! In fairness, in work I have been working with loads of twenty somethings who are just out of college in the past couple of years and they seem mostly sound and narcissism-free so I'm not sure if this gender-fever is as big a deal as is being made out or of it's a passing fad.


A lot of that book is very useful for treating depression, anxiety and some other issues. It ties in perfectly with most therapies and such. His comments on transsexuals were based on empirical evidence. He also said that if one of his students asked him to address them in a certain way he would oblige as much as possible. What he objected to was being legally compelled to use ridiculous pronouns that occur nowhere else in the language. Xe, Xir, Xim and other such made up shite.


Top
 Profile   
 



Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
20513
Location:
Below the hengiform.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:45 pm 

Yep. I have no idea what the point of those pronouns are. Could someone explain a few of them to give me some idea. Do they all actually mean something?


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Jun 2005
Posts:
2822
Location:
dublinium
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:33 pm 

Take the word spectrum and add a load of made up narcissistic, please notice me bollox to it and you'll not be far off


Top
 Profile   
 


User avatar

Joined:
Dec 2005
Posts:
1464
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:59 pm 

Eoin McLove wrote:
Yep. I have no idea what the point of those pronouns are. Could someone explain a few of them to give me some idea. Do they all actually mean something?


They are designed to be gender neutral and appease whatever made up gender they identify with . Referring to a trans man or woman as her or he is no longer good enough. I sent you on a list. It's an absolute headfuck to try to put them into sentences. A law that would fine you for not using them is absurd. We all need to use them at all times to appease a tiny segment of the population and a heap of pisstakers. This gender fluidity nonsense is all set to be taught to children too.


Top
 Profile   
 

Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next