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<  MI Users Confront The Wider World  ~  MI Forums 2013

The Fires of Hell
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Metalireland Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Posts: 7326 Location: learning the sacred words of praise hell satan
Well here's my tuppence on this topic for 2013 - bearing in mind I've seen this complaint made here every year for the last 12 years, even since MI's first months.

Things are just different now. It's as simple as that. Of couse much of the spark and frisson has gone out of the forums, and the reasons are clear. I wouldnt deny it for a second.

But there's more to it than that simple criticism. The picture is much bigger. So let's look at a few things in turn.

1 - Oooooooobbbbbbbviously the forum is an old structure. Web 2.0 overtook it completely, Facebook now dominates social online interaction and looks set to do so until the next thing comes along. Every legacy web community in the fucking world has been torpedoed by it. MI is little different.

What MI still offers however is what Facebook, despite its speed and apparent connectivity, cant. Even though this forum life is from a different web age, it is a bona fide community.

Facebook depends on who you're connected to, and hence what you will be exposed to. It can be a community, to a point - but it is a limited one.

By contrast, this place is a genuinely open space, where you will see stuff that FB will not connect you with. In point of fact- and this is well known - FB actually limits rather than expands your choices by making your decisions for you.

What's more important about FB etc is that it has changed the expectation of what it means to be social on the internet for younger readers and potential readers. Given the ease of FB, does the forum structure seem a little geriatric or troublesome (or indeed limiting) to potential young new readers? Of course it does.

So that's another titanic struggle. How do you get young'uns to engage in an old architecture?


2 - Our age. We've all grown up. We've said a great deal of the things we want to say, had the fights we wanted or had to have, got a lot out of our systems. People move on, just as they should.

This is a much, much bigger problem than who is or isnt talking on MI's forum though, and undoubtedly affects our entire scene.

The plain fact of the matter is that getting new kids to proper underground metal in Ireland is a war that is being lost, in my opinion.

What can be done about that is bigger than this place.


3 - On many occasions, too many of you lot are cunts to new users,and now you're the same ones complaining that the place is dry. For many years now, loads of people would probably have stayed on to become valuable members of the community had they not been abused by a cohort of know alls here.

Should / could I have moderated that better? Probably. Noone can be at it 24/7 though and often the damage is done.

You should really take a minute to think about how that ripples out. If they dont come back, they wont see what gigs are on, what music's getting put out etc etc. It has an effect that's bigger than you getting a laugh.

Honestly - you have a resource here capable of spreading a lot of local music and its ecosystem to potentially eager new readers, and all you want to do is piss on their apparent naivete.

Epic fail, in the long run.


4 - The forums may be less interesting than they were, but in point of fact hits to MI whole enjoyed their highest ever surge in September last year and May this year, out performing any previous headcount both in unique users and page impressions. A twelve year high.

The rest of the site gets a huge viewership from people who - becasue of everything I've outlined above - feel they have no need to post on the forums. That's all the old heads who maybe dont post any more, transient visitors, and young people who maybe dont want to engage with the forums. Of course I want them to come to the forums- we all should. For whatever reason though (and mobile, actually, is a big part of it - it has contributed significantly to MI hits in the last 12 months) they're content just to read. Which again, I can understand, as I'd do the same.

So MI in fact is entirely healthy and widely read, even if your interest in the forums - and dont get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing - has dwindled.

If I havent made it abundantly clear enough though, the much much bigger problem facing us all - prmoters, shops, bands, even casual readers - is how to get kids properly through the metal scene here. MI reflects that lack of churn.

The thing is, you maybe feel able to sit back and criticise MI - go for it, I've outlasted everyone for twelve years and will continue to - but do reflect on the share ALL OF US have in making this place attractive to outsiders.

The scene needs every breath of life it can get, and to cut part of that off, in the form of new users and even existing ones, out of sheer arrogance and nastiness, is really silly.

So I'm not in any way denying the obvious. As I said, things are very different now.

Just consider your own place in that. And that's addressed to everyone, btw, noone in specific.
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Eoin McLove
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:19 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 Posts: 15482 Location: In the village by the hangman's bay.
I'm sure a lot of the people who think that MI is full of wankers still actually read the forum without contributing.

The heads who have been here for years, myself included, have lost a lot of the interest in having the same old arguments when, really, no one actually gives a fuck what anyone else thinks of their musical taste.

There have been many great threads over the years that have stretched to epic proportions but really, who wants to keep regurgitating the same old opinions year in year out...

It's great to see the front page a lot more alive these days, though. The action has definitely moved to the main page over the past couple of years and it's great that that has happened. Seeing more people willing to write for the website is encouraging. In my own case, and I'm sure for the other writers too, it makes you really think about what you want to say about a band or album. It's fun trying to articulate your point in a way that people will get. Some times the comment sections generate some debate too.

There is no fighting facebook and I'm not sure how to attract 'the kids' at this point. Between this place, all ages gigs and ITV what more can you do. You can lead a horse to water...

The thing with music is that it really is powerful. When it grips you, that is it, you're hooked. Why there is a dearth of new, or 'proper', metal coming from the young 'uns is a mystery. Sure, we have all played in shitty teenage metal bands but there has always been a trickle down effect which seems to be running dry. Then again, there have been some great new bands emerging here lately that shouldn't be overlooked just because they aren't spotty teens...

Blah....
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The Fires of Hell
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:32 pm Reply with quote
Metalireland Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Posts: 7326 Location: learning the sacred words of praise hell satan
Quote:
I'm sure a lot of the people who think that MI is full of wankers still actually read the forum without contributing.


They do. The stats show it, fully.

Also you're entirely right about what the focus of people's attention should now be. It should be finding a bit of passion again in pure music and just sharing that with all the newcomers we can. Cheesy, yes, but we all know it.
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Corrupted
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:42 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 2889
I took the hump and didn't post for a year back around about 2010. Still had a look 3 or 4 times a day though.
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bunit
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:46 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 5077 Location: Reno, Nevada
Just thought I'd contribute here. I still read the forums alot (almost daily). I dont really post anymore as I used to do alot of my talking on here in the gig forums. But since moving to the states I cant really contribute anything to this other than "Hope it goes well, wish I was there type thing".

I still get into a lot of music through here, for example I probably never would've picked up the new Bodom album if I hadnt read Donals review recently. Similar to the last Evile album.

Aside from the odd album or band im into on the main page I just dont have much to contribute as alot of stuff generally liked on here (black / death metal) just isnt to my tastes. Nothing wrong with that of course, its not a criticism.

But as a reader, so many young people get shot down on here and never come back as CT said. If a kid dared to put up a Five Finger Death Punch thread on the main page id give it maybe 5 posts of read interest before people threw all they had into ruining it and making fun of the new guy. If youre not into it then dont post in the thread. That same person will eventually check out the other threads and discover new stuff. Thats how I started out here, posting threads about Machine Head and Trivium and then saw a Primordial album review and decided to check it out. Hooked ever since, and found alot of great underground / local music because I stuck it out. Alot of younger people though wont survive the slagging they get here and just move on.
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H
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:11 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 Posts: 11061 Location: www.dme-promotions.com.com
Yes, the review of the COB album was positive but of course there was some smart arse comment on the front page to go along with it, much like for the Anselmo record. So whoever is responsible for those little things needs to look at themselves too. Doesn't help.....
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Jesus Phish
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:32 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: dublin
Eoin McLove wrote:

The heads who have been here for years, myself included, have lost a lot of the interest in having the same old arguments when, really, no one actually gives a fuck what anyone else thinks of their musical taste.

There have been many great threads over the years that have stretched to epic proportions but really, who wants to keep regurgitating the same old opinions year in year out...


So don't click into the thread, don't read the thread and don't comment in the thread. I'm not interested in someone telling me why Metallica are better than Megadeth either, but if some new lads want to talk about it let them at it.

When they want to talk about something I'm interested in I'll pay attention.
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bunit
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:37 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 5077 Location: Reno, Nevada
Jesus Phish wrote:
Eoin McLove wrote:

The heads who have been here for years, myself included, have lost a lot of the interest in having the same old arguments when, really, no one actually gives a fuck what anyone else thinks of their musical taste.

There have been many great threads over the years that have stretched to epic proportions but really, who wants to keep regurgitating the same old opinions year in year out...


So don't click into the thread, don't read the thread and don't comment in the thread. I'm not interested in someone telling me why Metallica are better than Megadeth either, but if some new lads want to talk about it let them at it.

When they want to talk about something I'm interested in I'll pay attention.


This sums up alot of why younger people avoid this place. The old arguments are only old to those who've done it before. To some 12 year old who wants to talk with his buddies about this great new album he found out about called 'The Black Album', let them discuss it and dont jump in belittling them.
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Loki
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:53 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 Posts: 934
i think there's a relatively simple solution to the butchery of young'uns. Have a subforum for newbies and get a relatively responsible mod to oversee it. Newbies don't get access / promoted to top end forum until they've hit a feasible amount of points or been given rep points by mods. similarly existing users / twits don't have access. they can read but not post.

Newbies get the crap out of their system and perhaps provide threads of worth that mods +rep them for. in time newbie is promoted on the back of performance and is simultaneously familiar - and possibly more sown in - to the local metal community, getting and giving more in the process.

already tested and working in a variety of other forums and on those forums frequent reports that the joie de vivre of youth makes the newb specific forums a more enjoyable place than the crusty care home of the existing forum.
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Snatchgrabber
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:57 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 529
That's some vBulletin shit you're talkin' right there man
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martinmcguinness
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:47 am Reply with quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2012 Posts: 24
How much of the problem is emigration do yis think? For me, the gig section was always the most useful part of the site. Since I moved out of Ireland, there's less reason for me to check that part and I probably check in less on account of that. Wonder if that's true for anyone else.
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MULLAN Extraordinaire
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:00 am Reply with quote
Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 4221 Location: Space.
Loki wrote:
i think there's a relatively simple solution to the butchery of young'uns. Have a subforum for newbies and get a relatively responsible mod to oversee it. Newbies don't get access / promoted to top end forum until they've hit a feasible amount of points or been given rep points by mods. similarly existing users / twits don't have access. they can read but not post.

Newbies get the crap out of their system and perhaps provide threads of worth that mods +rep them for. in time newbie is promoted on the back of performance and is simultaneously familiar - and possibly more sown in - to the local metal community, getting and giving more in the process.

already tested and working in a variety of other forums and on those forums frequent reports that the joie de vivre of youth makes the newb specific forums a more enjoyable place than the crusty care home of the existing forum.

Fucking brilliant idea man. While we're at it, this forum should be a democratic platform. I didn't sign up for this dictatorship. Who the fuck is this CT chap everyone talks about? Show your face you coward. And what makes these mods so special that they get to tell us cunts what to do? No votes, no support, no nothing.
Born into an elite entitlement just like the royal family or some shit. I bet there's a secret forum where all the mods get together with fine wines and marvel at how obedient us mere boors are toward them and when a little bit of stink, like this thread arrives, the masters awake with their words of wisdom and knowledge. And everyone cowers to give thanks and praise.

Anyway, after all that - what would be the outcome of having a newbie forum for the likes of me? Would that elevate me to the middle/upper-middle class section? If a monetary alternative were to be implemented eg. "For $20 you can skip newbie status and join the best of the best in the MAIN FORUM right away" that would be great and we wouldn't have to put up with ads for Ulster Bank and Calor Gas.
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PatrickReborn
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:55 am Reply with quote
Joined: 13 Jan 2009 Posts: 2220 Location: Castlebar/Galway
Loki wrote:
i think there's a relatively simple solution to the butchery of young'uns. Have a subforum for newbies and get a relatively responsible mod to oversee it. Newbies don't get access / promoted to top end forum until they've hit a feasible amount of points or been given rep points by mods. similarly existing users / twits don't have access. they can read but not post.

Newbies get the crap out of their system and perhaps provide threads of worth that mods +rep them for. in time newbie is promoted on the back of performance and is simultaneously familiar - and possibly more sown in - to the local metal community, getting and giving more in the process.

already tested and working in a variety of other forums and on those forums frequent reports that the joie de vivre of youth makes the newb specific forums a more enjoyable place than the crusty care home of the existing forum.


What is considered a "thread of worth"? Say a young lad puts up a thread for the new Avenged Sevenfold album - does he get awarded rep points, or is he deducted, or does he stay the same? Would a lad who, lets say, puts up a thread that might be open to less criticism on the main forum, (possibly about a more underground band, or certainly a band less "mainstream") get more rep points than the lad who posts about Avenged Sevenfold/Trivium/BMTH etc...

FB is obviously the more popular place to discuss these things with mates who wont ridicule your opinion, which is cuntish. I certainly wouldn't have discovered a lot of killer bands, local and international, without this site for reference.
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Dark Stranger
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:12 am Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 Posts: 14962 Location: Holding a fiery stride
MULLAN Extraordinaire wrote:

Born into an elite entitlement just like the royal family or some shit. I bet there's a secret forum where all the mods get together with fine wines and marvel at how obedient us mere boors are toward them and when a little bit of stink, like this thread arrives, the masters awake with their words of wisdom and knowledge. And everyone cowers to give thanks and praise.


Actually we have two secret forums on here.

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valedictionkev
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:31 am Reply with quote
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 Posts: 133 Location: Lucan
Laughing Hot mary was a complete bitch.
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